National and racial pride - what's your take on it?

[Kommando]

I personally think it is weak to take pride in one's nation or race, since what one's nation/race has done is not what oneself has done, thus one has no reason to take pride or feel shame over it.

For this same reason I think it is just as alright to shout racial slurs as it is to make 'normal' insults at people, aswell as degrading someone's nation. They should not feel any pride or shame over it in the first place, since they have no reason to do so, for the reason I mentioned above.

Discuss.

[Kazuya86]

i think the same:smile:

[SuperNubb]

Azn Pryde!

[Hastings]

Thus why europe is falling.

[Scruffy]

:blink:

*looks out of window*

it looks fine to me...

[OkeiDo]

Yes it used to be a so called "us society" but now it's turning into something individually and it's all about yourself. I hope that EU will turn into one nation!

Fear the muslims :ninja:

[Kommando]

I also hope Europe will be formed into a single nation. It would be practical for travelling since the same money would be used everywhere throughout Europe. But Turkey should join too, altough they are Moslem, since it is a nice and sunny place.

[CaptainSnake]

Azn Pryde!

no words needed in this post!

[frikazoyd]

For this same reason I think it is just as alright to shout racial slurs as it is to make 'normal' insults at people, aswell as degrading someone's nation. They should not feel any pride or shame over it in the first place, since they have no reason to do so, for the reason I mentioned above.


These are not the same thing.

Insulting one's country boils down to two things. You're either making fun of their government or their customs.

Now, making fun of someone's government and the choices that system has made, that's something most people don't care about. Similarly, making fun of a country's economic system won't phase most people. I'll concede that much, as most people aren't that concerned or involved in their country's decisions. Most people slough it off, like when Americans make fun of Canadian money.

However, making fun of their customs is just like making fun of someone for their race, both of which I feel are wrong.

You see, when someone grows up as an Asian, or black American, or white American, or Norwegian, Swedish, English, French, Indian, Iraqi or Canadian, they grew up with certain customs. Things they just always do. Foods that they like or grew up on. Activities that they do. Family traditions. Religious traditions. That sort of thing.

So when you attack them for those sorts of things, they will often see it as a very hard strike. Because you are insulting who they are as a person, what composes them. Now if you think it is okay to demoralize someone for who they are, that's an issue of morality. But a simple personal insult that you use everyday on a friend that you know doesn't phase him isn't the same as calling someone a racial slur. Instead, insulting someone for their race or country traditions is like calling your friend the worst thing you can think of, in the hopes that you will anger him to his core.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, yeah insulting someone for their race can be just like "normal" insults. "Normal" insults of the highest strength, the kind that makes your friend become your enemy. Don't expect a racial slur to be as mild as calling your friend a noob. Nobody on the receiving end likes it. Especially if it is the result of an inherited hatred for your race.

[Coldin]

Pride regarding nation or race is just a way to make oneself feel as a component of a group. We all want to feel like we are part of something and this is just one way of attempting to gain that feeling of connecting with other people in a group. However, patriotism and racial pride is stupid due to the fact, that if you really want to feel that connection with as many people as possible, why not just say you are proud to be human?

[frikazoyd]

However, patriotism and racial pride is stupid due to the fact, that if you really want to feel that connection with as many people as possible, why not just say you are proud to be human?

Racial pride isn't about trying to connect with as large group of people as possible. You don't seem to get it at all.

I have racial pride because I grew up a certain way. When I meet a person who shares my race, we instantly have a connection. An understanding of each other's lives. We can talk about things that most of our other friends cannot even begin to understand. It's almost like seeing an old friend from when you were growing up, you "catch up" and have a ton to talk about instantly. And you like them instantly. It's that sort of feeling, except with total strangers, simply because you grew up the same way, with the same foods and similar experiences.

And frankly, I don't care HOW many people I share this experience with. I just enjoy it when I do make that connection. Call it stupid if you will, but it still makes me smile.

[Kommando]

I don't think one should feel pride for being a part of a group at all. Instead one should be proud of one's own personality and accomplisments. Things that one controls.

And Frika, it makes sense you like how there's familiarity within your race, but why do you feel proud over others within it, when they are not you? I fail to see why one should feel pride over someone else.

[Scruffy]

Well my dads welsh, an im english an the most racial pride i ever get is when wales lose to england over rugby.

[frikazoyd]

I don't think one should feel pride for being a part of a group at all. Instead one should be proud of one's own personality and accomplisments. Things that one controls.

That's nice, but it doesn't give you the right to insult someone because they believe differently.

Also, life is not about personal accomplishments. Personal accomplishments do not mean much in the long run, life is more about how you interact with the people around you. Accomplishments don't bring the most joy in life, people do.


And Frika, it makes sense you like how there's familiarity within your race, but why do you feel proud over others?


I do NOT feel more proud than others. I just enjoy that I have this connection, and I appreciate that people of other races can share the connection in a different way. I don't think my race is any better than any other race. I don't think ANY race is better than others. Races are just different.

[Kommando]

Also, life is not about personal accomplishments. Personal accomplishments do not mean much in the long run, life is more about how you interact with the people around you. Accomplishments don't bring the most joy in life, people do.

That is subjective. For me personal accomplisments is one of the most important parts of life. I have to reach my definition of perfection.

I do NOT feel more proud than others. I just enjoy that I have this connection, and I appreciate that people of other races can share the connection in a different way. I don't think my race is any better than any other race. I don't think ANY race is better than others. Races are just different.

That was not what I meant. I meant: why do you feel pride at all over your race?

[frikazoyd]

That is subjective. For me personal accomplishments is one of the most important parts of life. I have to reach my definition of perfection.

If you will study the reactions of people who attain very hard to reach goals that require much effort over the course of their lives, you would be surprised I think.

Most people who lead accomplishment-oriented lives end up either spending their whole lives trying to accomplish even more (in vain), or end up disappointed that they aren't nearly as happy as they were before trying to reach that accomplishment.

People who live the former type of life end up squandering their time on this planet. People who end up in the latter camp either end life totally unhappy, or discover what really matters in life and end up happy despite their accomplishments.

Though, you are somewhat correct about it being subjective. Really, I have little in the way of personal evidence over you in saying "my case is right, not yours" than my own personal happiness. I don't know if you are happy or not, and levels of happiness are totally relative and unmeasurable.

[Scruffy]

true dat

lifes to short for me to give a crap about anything really, i live for my bed

[frikazoyd]

true dat

lifes to short for me to give a crap about anything really, i live for my bed

I chuckled out loud.

That was not what I meant. I meant: why do you feel pride at all over your race? Then why did you say "Over others?" And didn't your initial statement in fact express understanding of why I enjoy my racial connections?

[Kommando]

I wrote it incorrectly. It was supposed to be like this: "And Frika, it makes sense you like how there's familiarity within your race, but why do you feel proud of others (in this case your race)?"

Though, you are somewhat correct about it being subjective. Really, I have little in the way of personal evidence over you in saying "my case is right, not yours" than my own personal happiness. I don't know if you are happy or not, and levels of happiness are totally relative and unmeasurable.

Correction: I'm fully correct about it being subjective.

And no, I'm not fully happy, not until I have reached my ideal self.

[Scruffy]

And no, I'm not fully happy, not until I have reached my ideal self.

Thats a bad thing man, what with facing the onslaught of age constantly becoming your own perfect self becomes harder to do as you become older. So even if you do reach this perfect self, it will ultimatly buckle under the ravages of time!

So basically with that outlook your are doomed to always be wanting more

[Kommando]

At least I become satisfied as I become slightly better through time. I'm glad I have started to improve myself. If I had not I would feel shame for idly letting myself remain weak.

[Hastings]

I suggest watching "300". The message in the movie is bloody clear, and so are the consequences.

[frikazoyd]

I wrote it incorrectly. It was supposed to be like this: "And Frika, it makes sense you like how there's familiarity within your race, but why do you feel proud of others (in this case your race)?"


I don't think pride is really what I feel. I just derive pleasure from being able to associate with a specific group of people in a way that people who are not members of that group cannot do in an immediate way. And really, it isn't race specific. I would be able to identify with a person of ANY race who grew up in similar conditions.

Looking at the definitions of pride, I don't think that this feeling is unwarranted or conceited. I don't think my race is the best, and I don't gain any pleasure in my race when someone of the same race accomplishes something. So I don't think it's correct to call my experience pride.

Correction: I'm fully correct about it being subjective.

To be fair, you can only be subjective about what you think will bring you the most happiness. You are not correct at all in assuming that you know what will bring you the most happiness as a person, is what I was getting at. I was just conceding that some people have different ideas of full happiness, and there's no way of measuring the end results from person to person or from result to result, in a specific case.

However, the little bit that I have seen pretty clearly leads me to believe that expecting anything but relief or satisfaction after attaining a goal will leave a person wanting more. I can say that personal observation of people who use achievement as their main source of happiness tend to lose that level of happiness quickly after reaching the goal, and that would not be subjective. Whether you personally experience joy and are able to keep that joy in a long, meaningful way is indeed subjective. But you are NOT correct in assuming that it will bring you that kind of happiness. You can't prove it one way or the other.

[acker]

I believe that it's much, much easier to identify with people that have the same culture as you. Hence, racial "understanding", not "pride".

National pride works two ways. On one hand, it can lead to excessive nationalism (Nazi Germany, Japan 1930-45). On the other hand, it binds communities together if applied correctly, and can alleviate errors due to our inherent selfishness.

[Kommando]

I suggest watching "300". The message in the movie is bloody clear, and so are the consequences.

I have seen it twice.

[Hastings]

Watch it again then.

[MrSmiley]

At least I become satisfied as I become slightly better through time. I'm glad I have started to improve myself. If I had not I would feel shame for idly letting myself remain weak.

Well here is my opinion:

There is no such thing as a weak man or women, everyone is equal, Frika and Kommando are Disscussing/Argueing on the topic on hand now, they are both from differant cultures, if Frika was Kommandos brother Frika would see it from Kommando's point of view (Most probably) and vice versa (if Kommando was Frika's brother....Etc.) I myself take pride of my country and would defend it anyway I could.

Everyone has differant cultures, and no why should we all join in one country (or somthing) because then we would ALL be around the same, same education systems and money and survival tactics, the fact that human's are all differant in a good or bad way is what makes us ALL special and smart in our own way, Although some idiots are out there they do there part on the world, If Hitler was a good person things could possibly be worse or better so do not make discriminations about other races just because somones bad doesnt mean they are doing bad things to the world, if there was no Hitler, a person who hitler killed could have been even worse and taken over the world (Bit far fecthed but anyway) Please read what I have said and think it over!

[Kommando]

There are strong and there are weak individuals. Those who are strong can confront others, they will do what they want without caring how others judge them, they have a strong willpower and will not give up. Those who are weak are afraid of confrontations, they are afraid to be judged by others, and they will give up if it is the easiest option since they have a weak will.

Equality is a subjective concept. I personally see a strong individual as superior to a weak individual - altough not necessarily more worth, since worth is another concept than equality. So there is no such thing as "everyone is equal"; some are better than others.

Watch it again then.

I assume your point is how Xerxes is not satisfied with Persia and its population at his disposal, and how he wants more, by controlling all of the World and have everyone worship him as a god.

[frikazoyd]

There are strong and there are weak individuals. Those who are strong can confront others, they will do what they want without caring how others judge them, they have a strong willpower and will not give up. Those who are weak are afraid of confrontations, they are afraid to be judged by others, and they will give up if it is the easiest option since they have a weak will.


Life is not as simple as you make it out to be. People are far more complex than that. I am non-confrontational, I would rather avoid fights. I'm not afraid of them, I just don't like them. From the point of view of someone who has a dualistic view of personality types (such as you), that might appear as weakness in character.

However, you and I both know that I have a very strong will. I'm going to stand up for what I believe in no matter what ANYONE says. Just because I'm not willing to get into a fist fight with you over it does not make me weak. I just don't see the point. Now, if I were in circumstances where I had to defend myself or someone near me from someone else who is too dense to debate with their mind and instead chooses to use their fists, I will defend or protect as much as is necessary. I am not afraid to get into a fight, but I will NEVER be the aggressor. Does that make me weak? I think not. I see myself as quite strong, and of stronger moral character than someone who has to resort to fists to make their point.

Equality is a subjective concept. I personally see a strong individual as superior to a weak individual - altough not necessarily more worth, since worth is another concept than equality. So there is no such thing as "everyone is equal"; some are better than others.


So basically what you are saying is that someone with a strong will is better than someone with a weak will?

You're welcome to think that, but the people I have known who are what you consider "weak willed" are FAR better friends to me than some of my friends who are overly strong of will. A strong will is what you want in a leader, but that doesn't make leaders any better than the people he leads. A leader without people to rule is just one person. The people of weak will are necessary to the person with the strong will.

They may not be equal in terms of strength, but that is only one factor. On the whole, I see them as equals. If only because they are worth the same amount as people. You can say that someone is better than another person at something in particular, but equating that to superiority on the whole is simplistic.

[Kommando]

Life is not as simple as you make it out to be. People are far more complex than that. I am non-confrontational, I would rather avoid fights. I'm not afraid of them, I just don't like them. From the point of view of someone who has a dualistic view of personality types (such as you), that might appear as weakness in character.

Since you are not afraid of confontations, you can make them (altough you might want to avoid them), thus you are not weak in that aspect. And when I said confrontations I was referring to any type of confrontation - including verbal - not just physical.

However, you and I both know that I have a very strong will. I'm going to stand up for what I believe in no matter what ANYONE says. Just because I'm not willing to get into a fist fight with you over it does not make me weak. I just don't see the point. Now, if I were in circumstances where I had to defend myself or someone near me from someone else who is too dense to debate with their mind and instead chooses to use their fists, I will defend or protect as much as is necessary. I am not afraid to get into a fight, but I will NEVER be the aggressor. Does that make me weak? I think not. I see myself as quite strong, and of stronger moral character than someone who has to resort to fists to make their point.

I don't think it is a requirement to physically fight to be strong. Verbal confrontation is enough.

So basically what you are saying is that someone with a strong will is better than someone with a weak will?

You're welcome to think that, but the people I have known who are what you consider "weak willed" are FAR better friends to me than some of my friends who are overly strong of will. A strong will is what you want in a leader, but that doesn't make leaders any better than the people he leads. A leader without people to rule is just one person. The people of weak will are necessary to the person with the strong will.

Yes, I think someone who's strong is better than someone who's weak. And yeah, it is true those who are weak often make better friends. And yeah, it is also true it is good that there are weak people.

They may not be equal in terms of strength, but that is only one factor. On the whole, I see them as equals. If only because they are worth the same amount as people. You can say that someone is better than another person at something in particular, but equating that to superiority on the whole is simplistic.

I personally think the mental strenght factor is the most important. So to me someone who's mentally strong is better than someone who is 10x more intelligent but mentalally weaker. But when it comes to decide who's better and who's worse, the whole thing is subjective, so it is not much to argue about really.

[Scruffy]

I suggest watching "300".

Thats your solution for everything!

[Teh Infernal Zombine]

Theres no such thing as races... WERE ALL HUMAN!

[Hastings]

Race dictates what type of human we are, just like you can have differant types of the same kind of bird or bug or mole or watever. They have the same features, just slightly changed, such as color or size, etc.

I beleive you are thinking of species, in which case you are correct, there are no separate human species, we are all human.

[Kommando]

There's also other differences but color among the races. Black people have a better potential to gain muscle than the other races for instance - that's what I have heard anyways.

There's also skeletal differences. A guy in Sweden - who's theories influenced Hitler - who was active in the early 1900's has researched racial differences and concluded that the skull is different in general among various groups in Sweden - such as fully Germanic Swedes, Swedes with Ugric (Finnish) blood and Samis.

He said the fully Germanic Swedes were smarter in general because of biology. But I don't think he had sufficient information to back that theory up, especially considering the Swedes with Ugric (Finnish) blood and the Samis lived in the north of Sweden, which wasn't as prioritized as the south of Sweden when it came to education and most stuff.

But since there's many differences among races I wouldn't be surprised if some race had a brain capacity superior to the other races.

[JK-]

Race dictates what type of human we are, just like you can have differant types of the same kind of bird or bug or mole or watever. They have the same features, just slightly changed, such as color or size, etc.

I beleive you are thinking of species, in which case you are correct, there are no separate human species, we are all human.

There are different species of humans.
The others are just extinct:P

[Hastings]

You are going to need to elaborate on that one. :huh:

[frikazoyd]

There's also other differences but color among the races. Black people have a better potential to gain muscle than the other races for instance - that's what I have heard anyways

I don't believe that this stems from their race. Chris Rock, although a comedian, makes a very good point concerning this in a comedy bit. He says that American black people tend to be bigger and stronger than most other races in the world, but this is probably a side effect of hundreds of years of slavery, of killing weaker African slaves, and of "breeding" the strongest ones so that slave owners would own stronger slaves. He basically argues that slave owners would kill the smart ones and breed the strong ones.

I don't think that native Africans or African descendants in other countries have shown this trait, which would further demonstrate that this is more of a characteristic of the social "animalization" of black people during the slave trade era, and not a genetic trait handed down from all African peoples. I don't think this has affected the intelligence of black people in America, however. I'll tie it together below.


But since there's many differences among races I wouldn't be surprised if some race had a brain capacity superior to the other races.


While this may be true, I don't think this has a measurable effect on measurable intelligence in any particular race or nationality today. I believe that while there may be a very slight discrepancy in how much "intelligence" one can acquire from person to person, and base intelligence as a youth seems to correspond with head size, how intelligent a person is in their adult life is more than just "how big your brain is."

Let's look at the African American again. Hitler, and many others, have theorized that African Americans have smaller craniums, and therefore have biologically "traded in" a little bit of intelligence in for a little more muscular strength. And if you take Chris Rock's point across in the intelligence factor, one would think that the American slavery effect on Black people in the USA would have made them dumber here. That doesn't seem to be the case, however.

If you look at African American history, you'll see that many important pioneers in American technology, food, and medicine have been African Americans. One of the first open heart surgeries that was successfully performed was done by an African American surgeon. Not only that, this was done in 1893. Not even Fifty years after slavery was abolished. If anything, you would think the effect slavery had on his people's intelligence would be most apparent closer to the time frame of slavery. And yet he did this VERY early.

An African American started the idea of blood banks in America. A black man patented the air conditioner. Some of the first modern computer patents were filed by a black inventor.

So we see that black men are CLEARLY capable of very profound contributions to society. So, I think that while biology may help intelligence in a good way, a lot of what really builds intelligence is your schooling, your experiences while growing up, and your parents. Good parents, a good education, and childhood experiences that grow and challenge your mind will produce a better, more intelligent person than just a bigger brain. I mean, if you get right down to it, what is the extra mass good for anyway? Isn't it the prevailing theory that we don't even use 20% of what we have nowadays?



I guess what I'm trying to say is, while some races may (on average) be more inclined towards a certain body type, or certain abilities, our bodies are capable of anything. There are always exceptions to every rule, and I believe that anyone can be as intelligent or as good an athlete as they want to be, with enough hard work and training. Putting your body through certain mental or physical tests on a regular basis builds the characteristics and abilities you want. You're only as dumb or as weak as you want to be.

[Kommando]

I never stated in my post that I believe blacks have a lesser brain capacity due to biology.

As for the bigger brain-issue. It sounds to me like a bigger brain must bring some advantage. I would personally take a guess a bigger brain could store memory better than a smaller, but that's just a speculation.

And yes, there's always exception in most fields (in this case body types), but that doesn't mean one can't generalize.

[frikazoyd]

I never stated in my post that I believe blacks have a lesser brain capacity due to biology. I never said you did. Many people who talk about this sort of thing do believe this though, so I was just addressing it as a contradiction to modern thoughts of intelligence and human capabilities based on biological factors.


As for the bigger brain-issue. It sounds to me like a bigger brain must bring some advantage. I would personally take a guess a bigger brain could store memory better than a smaller, but that's just a speculation.

And yes, there's always exception in most fields (in this case body types), but that doesn't mean one can't generalize.

You totally missed my point. My point was that generalizing about that sort of thing is pointless, as ANYBODY who puts their mind and body into any sort of accomplishment can do anything they want. If the entire nation of China decides to have mandatory athletic training every day, then the "statistics" would be skewed and it would seem to show that Chinese people are "genetically predisposed" to being strong.

The point is, we don't know. We don't know enough about genetics yet. And humanity on the whole doesn't know what the human brain is capable of. Some random theory from a teenager on an internet gaming forum isn't going to matter if all of modern medicine and science can't decide what we can do with full mental capacity. Until that happens, mental capacity arguments are pretty much moot if you ask me, when it comes to discussing the biological aspect. Humanity on the whole just doesn't understand it enough. We have a good understanding of education and the effect that has, but that's really it.

[JK-]

Frika, a while ago I read that a bigger brain don't help on your intelligence.
In fact, Einstein, he actually had a smaller brain than normal people, still he was one of the smartest people of our time.

And about that 20%, the myth is that it's about 10% of your total brain capacity.
The creator of this article seems to be pretty sure about that the myth is false though.
Link (http://faculty.washington.edu/chudler/tenper.html)

And Hastings, about that it is several species of humans, this link should give you the answer:P
Evolution of man. (http://www.archaeologyinfo.com/species.htm)

[Kommando]

Yes, it is true that Einstein's brain was smaller than the average male brain, but that doesn't prove a bigger brain doesn't help.

[frikazoyd]

Frika, a while ago I read that a bigger brain don't help on your intelligence.
In fact, Einstein, he actually had a smaller brain than normal people, still he was one of the smartest people of our time.

And about that 20%, the myth is that it's about 10% of your total brain capacity.
The creator of this article seems to be pretty sure about that the myth is false though.
Link (http://faculty.washington.edu/chudler/tenper.html)

And Hastings, about that it is several species of humans, this link should give you the answer:P
Evolution of man. (http://www.archaeologyinfo.com/species.htm)

On the former point, that makes sense. I remember being skeptical about it the first time I heard it, so that's cool. I still say that education has more to do with actual usable intelligence than biology though, and I still think that intelligence is another one of those things that is REALLY hard to measure.

On the latter point, many of those species are NOT human. All of them in fact, except Homo Sapiens, are not human. And, transspeciation is a crucial part of Darwin's theory of evolution that has yet to be observed or proven in any significant way.

Note that I'm not saying that evolution isn't real. I believe in evolution, you see it all the time. All animals evolve in many ways, to resist toxins, to survive in different environments, and to attract mates. But no species has ever given rise to another. This is another thing that bothered me when I first learned about evolution, and I had never heard the presentations against it before.

[JK-]

Hehe, I was actually sure that those 2 arguements would show up:P

Kommando, I do know that it doesn't prove that it won't help, but I just mentioned it to show that at least you wouldn't be able to prove it with a human's intelligence. That's because Einstein got a smaller brain, yet his intellect was much higher than an average person, so it would be impossible to prove that by someones intelligence.

And Frikazoyd, even though if the humans didn't evolve from the apes, it has existed several species of humans.
Two of those are the "Homo Sapiens" and the "Neanderthals".

[Kommando]

but I just mentioned it to show that at least you wouldn't be able to prove it with a human's intelligence. That's because Einstein got a smaller brain, yet his intellect was much higher than an average person, so it would be impossible to prove that by someones intelligence.

It is incredible naive to think bigger brains can't be more intelligent just because of Einstein's brain. He was just one person, out of many millions.

[JK-]

I didn't say it can't be, I just said that it didn't have to be like that.

In the last statement I said that at least you couldn't prove that someone with a bigger brain are smarter than an average person.

[Kommando]

Ah okay, so that's what you meant. I found your previous post difficult to read.

[noobbot]

I don't believe that this stems from their race. Chris Rock, although a comedian, makes a very good point concerning this in a comedy bit. He says that American black people tend to be bigger and stronger than most other races in the world, but this is probably a side effect of hundreds of years of slavery, of killing weaker African slaves, and of "breeding" the strongest ones so that slave owners would own stronger slaves. He basically argues that slave owners would kill the smart ones and breed the strong ones.

Slave owners killed the disobedient ones, not necessarily the smarter ones. I haven't noticed anything, that is, of blacks being stronger, at least around myself.

While this may be true, I don't think this has a measurable effect on measurable intelligence in any particular race or nationality today. I believe that while there may be a very slight discrepancy in how much "intelligence" one can acquire from person to person, and base intelligence as a youth seems to correspond with head size, how intelligent a person is in their adult life is more than just "how big your brain is."

The advanced nature of the human brain, is, naturally, the entire reason we are more intelligent than other animals; how can one contest, therefore, that brain structure doesn't impact intelligence?

Let's look at the African American again. Hitler, and many others, have theorized that African Americans have smaller craniums, and therefore have biologically "traded in" a little bit of intelligence in for a little more muscular strength. And if you take Chris Rock's point across in the intelligence factor, one would think that the American slavery effect on Black people in the USA would have made them dumber here. That doesn't seem to be the case, however.

If you look at African American history, you'll see that many important pioneers in American technology, food, and medicine have been African Americans. One of the first open heart surgeries that was successfully performed was done by an African American surgeon. Not only that, this was done in 1893. Not even Fifty years after slavery was abolished. If anything, you would think the effect slavery had on his people's intelligence would be most apparent closer to the time frame of slavery. And yet he did this VERY early.

This I will give you - Daniel Hale Williams was, indeed, black, and did perform one of a series of firsts in "open-heart surgery."

An African American started the idea of blood banks in America. A black man patented the air conditioner. Some of the first modern computer patents were filed by a black inventor.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_conditioner#History

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transistor#History

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer#History_of_computing

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_bank

Do a Google image search on every name listed, on every page, and I guarantee you'll not find a single black man. Not that I'm racist - hardly - it's just that I hate misinformation. Also, even if they did file a patent, it needn't necessarily mean they invented it - only that they acquired blueprints, and were the first to apply for a patent.

So we see that black men are CLEARLY capable of very profound contributions to society. So, I think that while biology may help intelligence in a good way, a lot of what really builds intelligence is your schooling, your experiences while growing up, and your parents. Good parents, a good education, and childhood experiences that grow and challenge your mind will produce a better, more intelligent person than just a bigger brain. I mean, if you get right down to it, what is the extra mass good for anyway? Isn't it the prevailing theory that we don't even use 20% of what we have nowadays?

Here's my philosophy, with regards to intelligence: there lies a genetic potential, which is fulfilled by environmental stimulation. Which means, of course, one with rather low potential, can surpass one with high potential, assuming the former is placed in a more intellectually stimulating environment than the other.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, while some races may (on average) be more inclined towards a certain body type, or certain abilities, our bodies are capable of anything. There are always exceptions to every rule, and I believe that anyone can be as intelligent or as good an athlete as they want to be, with enough hard work and training. Putting your body through certain mental or physical tests on a regular basis builds the characteristics and abilities you want. You're only as dumb or as weak as you want to be.

I'm larger than most black people my approximate age, despite being of northern European - primarily Nordic, Saxon, and Germanic - origin.

[Wizard]

Personally, I hate my own country men, over zealous with that "filipino" crap half the time. Makes me want to kill em all.

[frikazoyd]

Personally, I hate my own country men, over zealous with that "filipino" crap half the time. Makes me want to kill em all.

You're Filipino?

What a small world we live in.

[Wizard]

Yeah, I am. Now you know which part of Asia I come from.