"Shambler" Spectator Mode [Archive]

Hastings

04-27-2007, 10:17 AM

In an effort to garner some real discussion her in I@S, I am going to be periodically reviving ideas that have been said on the boards, and try to tie them together into more than just a a paragraph. So bear with me now, this is not soley my idea, it has been stated before loosely by a few members and playtesters, and even another dev and I. The idea around it is one of functionality and also immersion.

When you enter spec mode in most games you are outa the loop where paly is concerned, and you cant do much other than watch other players as an invisable camera. But what if you were not invisable? What if you could be seen, but not afffect gameplay? Intrigued?

The idea is that once you enter spectator mode you have the option of being the invisable ghost camera, or the option of spawning as a zombie. Yes a zombie, but not as what you think of. What if you spawn as a headless and armless shambling corpse? Perhaps not headless due to the mythos we persribe too, but armless most definatly. You cannot attack with out arms, and if you have no head, or even no jaw you cant bite or spit or any other possible secondary zombie attack connected with the mouth.

Players would know you are not neccessarily dangerous, more like an annoying background creature. You cant harm them, but they can harm you. If too many of you specs start moaning, perhaps the players will deem you enough of a threat to kill you. It wouldnt take much to kill you at this point, you are afterall a spectator and not a real game affecting player. Perhaps any small bit of damage would kill the shambler and make him respawn in some other area. Or perhaps to go the extra mile have him wait like a minute untill his corspe gets back up. Think of the awesome animation for that one, and think of the terror a player would have :D

It would add immmensely to the immersion. We could make the player animations much more in line with the classic shambler, and seeing extra zombies wandering around moaning is creepy. It also adds to the fear of large groups. How many zombies are a threat in the mass of moaning corpses?

With a sytem like this, spec players can spectate, and still feel part of the action, they are tangible and have little effect on their surroundings, but they can still die, and still cause a bit a fright in their food source. Plus it might add to the psychological benefit of the last few zombies if the survivors happen to be winning.

Comment!

lordLoss

04-27-2007, 10:33 AM

Thats a cool idea, I can imagine the spec zombies blocking doorways and making it tougher for the humans though.

frikazoyd

04-27-2007, 10:40 AM

Thats a cool idea, I can imagine the spec zombies blocking doorways and making it tougher for the humans though.

There is actually a feature I have been wanting to implement that would eliminate this problem.

Though as Hastings said, the "shamblers" could "die".

cheese

04-27-2007, 11:13 AM

This idea is really awesome. It's kind of like that whole thing in greek dodgeball where after you were out you'd stand behind the lines of the opposing team.

I think it makes a more zombie horde atmosphere and lets people still keep interest. It also allows for some interesting strategies zombie side. It'd be a good way to reduce vent camping too.

I say +1 shambler spectator mode.

JK-

04-27-2007, 11:29 AM

This idea is awesome!
Though, I think the spectators should be able to push a pre-defined button to change the spectator mode.

And to fix blocking spectators, they could just make the spectators no-collide with the objects & other players, right?

Also, it should be a server option to kinda customize the shambling corpses.
Maybe make them partly invisible, if people think they're kinda annoying, and can block sight? Or for others reasons like that.

Maybe they could add a little area for pre-defining the spectators set-up in the server creating menu?
Here's a few suggestion that I can come up with:

- No-collide
- Ability to chat with living players (I believe the spectators won't ruin it for the spectators all the time >_> (Hopefully).

Client commands:
- Partly invisible
- Moaning sounds
- Enable / disable drawing/viewing of zombie spectators

Also, the devs could might add a kick feature for the humans?
This could be used for kicking the corpses for fun, and also for keeping them from blocking sight:p

Though, it should be a wait limit before they can use it again, to restore power for a new kick, like the kick plugin on the {S.M.C.} clan server:)

And the kick could probably be used against the "living" zombies to keep them away too.

cheese

04-27-2007, 12:00 PM

Blocking isn't going to be an issue as was mentioned.

I think that you're forgetting people only enter spectator mode when zombie lives are down to 1 and you die as a zombie. Thus, this isn't going to happen except on boards where survivors are winning.

Spectators normally come up, once every 20 games.

JK-

04-27-2007, 04:03 PM

frikazoyd

04-27-2007, 04:35 PM

Cheese, I think they're gonna fix the spectator mdoe for source, so that people can join spectator at start.

This is planned, yes. The absence of spectator in Zombie Panic: HL is to avoid a bug where someone could basically be an invisible "God" that can harm players. We won't take spectator out of ZP:S if we can help it.

Klokkwork1

04-28-2007, 06:22 AM

Wow, I like this idea. A lot. Sure, there are potential pitfalls, but the benefits are really appealing. And if the shambler zombie idea doesn't work out, what about something more innocuous? Like.. spectator cockroaches? Boy, I tell ya, if you make me real tiny, real fast, and give me the ability to walk on walls, I might have more fun spectating than brain-seeking. Of course, roaches could be easily stepped on by either side, so no worries about blocking, and hey, who's ever been hurt by a cockroach? No harm from the specs. Or NON-wall crawlers, like earthworms or rats, or something. What models are already in HL2? You could make spectator crows... Hmm.. Or a city scanner! *FLASH* Umm.. Switching to decaf now.

Garson

04-28-2007, 06:51 AM

I really like this idea.

Spectating is very boring, but with this implemented you wouldn?t have to bore yourself to death when you are watching. It would also add a great atmosphere, especially survivors, but as already stated shamblers wouldn?t be used all the time.

But it would still give the lategame joiners and zombies dying when there's no lives left something to do.

So, that?s why I like this idea.

Ussr1943

04-28-2007, 07:01 AM

I can see how this would be cool, not having to wait forever, but then again I can see this would be a problem also. Why render dead players? some peoples framrate may not like lots of zombies on screen (this is an iffy statement). Why if the human could tell this isn't a threat would they bother wasting precious ammo, or attempt to kill the fake zombies because real ones might use them as a trap. The fake zombies will also probably try everything they can to limit the humans, getting in peoples way, blocking vision, crowdig the humans. even wif you could walk through them they would just be a nussaince. Its a pretty good idea to have the specs involved a little, and if you can impliment it in a good way where people arent getting mobbed and cant see, or are getting blocked then go ahead! but if its going to become a problem to have theese on the map , dont bother with it.

I don't like to shoot at other peoples Ideas and leave nothing else so here is an alternative, why not have the spec spawn as zombie in a caged area where the humans could see them fight eachother :P

JK-

04-28-2007, 08:07 AM

1. They could probably add a client command, which enables/diables viewing of spectator zombies.
Actually gonna edit that into first post, thx for idea :P

2. The spectator zombies would most likely look different than the "real" zombies, as Hastings came up with an example for, like armless zombies.

3. I already came with a solution for that, which should work.
And that is to add a command for partly invisible spectators.
You can see it earlier in this thread.

cheese

04-28-2007, 09:11 AM

invisible gods that could harm players...awesome.

but back to the topic on hand.

Here's the min reqs for the game as posted.

Processor: 1.2 GHz Processor
OS: Windows, 2000/XP/Me/98
Graphic card: DirectX 7 level graphics card
Hard Drive: 4.5 GB
Memory: 256 MB RAM
Other: Internet Connection, DVD-ROM Drive

This is a game for HL2, not HL1. Most people will have these system specs by now.

Hastings

04-28-2007, 09:55 AM

Limiting a game because people may or may not have the specs to run it, limits far too much in games these days. Even the Hl2 devs dont do that anymore, as they are consistently releasing updates such as HDR which make the game graphics even more advanced. Besides, having the shamblers on screen would in theory have less grapphical impact anyway as they have no arms. No arms means less to render. That fact, and the fact that in normal conditions zombies can rove in packs in any given round kinda make that a moot point.

acker

04-29-2007, 06:01 PM

What if zombies coordinate with shamblers to create a zombie smoke screen (where shamblers block LOS for survivors while zombies move forward)?

Hastings

04-29-2007, 06:13 PM

Well that was kinda the point in a way, but it would be difficult to do anyway. Number one they are shamblers and are slow and die easily, and two, to be a spectator the zombies will have had to have been massacred, so in this case the survivors are more then enough equipped to take the on the zombie regardless of any followers he attains.

And they would not be able to coordinate anyway, specs can only talk to other specs.

-Rusty-

04-29-2007, 06:50 PM

hmm why not just use the hl2 corpse model as the "shambler"

its pretty low poly and i'd prefer if the shambler did have arms and stuff. it'd just look stupid missing everything. just reskin him to look less threatening. give him a slouched posture and the "old man shuffle" for his walk animation.

btw thats just a custom skin i put on the model so ignore that :P

http://usera.imagecave.com/-Rusty-/ZombiePanic/HL2_CorpseReskin.JPG

frikazoyd

04-29-2007, 06:52 PM

I think another idea behind the "No arms" is so you don't waste ammo on them, and can identify them immediately.

Though, that could be an added bonus to the gameplay, since ammo conservation is key.

Hastings

04-29-2007, 06:55 PM

Well yeah it would look kinda stupid, the idea was that since it didnt have arms the players would know right away that it wasnt a threat. Though I suppose after a while a player would be able to tell the differance, and in time of stress if he couldnt so much the better, freak outs add to the game :P

The look of the model captures what I envisioned, head rolled to the side, arms barely raised, etc. Is that your skin? Tis pretty good looking.

-Rusty-

04-29-2007, 06:58 PM

yeah, it'll be on my hl1 server if its ever gets put up.

Kazuya86

06-09-2007, 04:31 AM

This is a perfect idea.

Kommando

06-09-2007, 06:23 AM

I really like this idea. It would be cool being able to annoy survivors when becoming a spectator. Make sure killing the shamblers does not give any frags, though. It would might result in some survivors starting to mindlessy slaughter them instead of going for the real zombies.

And keep the regular spectator mode aswell if possible, as it can be useful if someone wants to record future ZP:S videos.

Also, I too think the shambler should have arms. It would look weird seeing 10+ shamblers without arms moving towards oneself.

Pteradactyl

06-10-2007, 02:39 PM

bleh
i'm not really for this idea
it'd just be an annoyance for survivors

but if you do use this idea
please make it so you could toggle it on and off

Kommando

06-10-2007, 03:09 PM

The Kinslayer

06-11-2007, 10:15 AM

I can't see how they'd be so annoying. It is not like they would be effectively blocking entrances if they had a low amount of health as I believe Hastings said in his post. One could just finish them off with melee weapons. If anything I think it would be fun having more to shot/hit while hunting down the remaining zombies.

Yes, but by having to distract yourself from whatever task you have at hand to kill one, your slowing yourself down to deal with something you shouldn't really have to deal with.

Kazuya86

06-11-2007, 03:32 PM

that is a fact but still i think its a good idea.

Ion

06-11-2007, 04:17 PM

If there are going to be shamblers, they need arms and jaws.

Just make them look like they couldn't cause damage.

I don't want to see a whole mob of armless jawless zombies. That would look ridiculous and put me off playing ZP:S.

JK-

06-11-2007, 04:21 PM

They could just make the players (Zombies/survivors) just no-collide with the shamblers.

Hastings

06-11-2007, 07:04 PM

They would not need to be armless or jawless, that idea was only to justify the fact that they cannot attack, and to let the player differentiate them from the zombies that can attack. While by no means a requirement, it would not be ridiculous. You do know this is a zombie game right?

Really, they only need to look hoorendously decayed to justify for their lack of abilities. ZPS zombies are fresh zombies, shamblers could be the last legs of a zombie before it is decayed too much for its mobility to cease.

The shameblers would only show up if zombies are losing horribly, so its not something you would see all the time, and then you would only see it if the player opted to become one instead of free roam spec mode. Another alternative could be perhaps designing the shambler mode as a way for admins to punish players that are abusive.

The shambler would be easily killed, have no armour, and take the lightest touch to kill. They add an easthetic touch to the game and allows for limited functionality ingame without detracting from the core gameplay.

I suppose if we wanted to get creative we could add in a random shambler that is spawened without legs and has to crawl. Perhaps give that to the player(s) with the least ammount of kills :D

HorroR

06-12-2007, 11:01 AM

I suppose if we wanted to get creative we could add in a random shambler that is spawened without legs and has to crawl. Perhaps give that to the player(s) with the least ammount of kills

Yeah, give the worst zombie the worst chance to get a kill. Smart thinking! If it is implemented, just make the Shambler missing a chunk of flesh in the chest or something. Probably have the lower half of the leg gone and the bone sticking out.

JK-

06-12-2007, 11:49 AM

Another alternative could be perhaps designing the shambler mode as a way for admins to punish players that are abusive.

Awesome idea!
Also, a way to prevent people to reconnect, you could maybe add a possibility to how long the mode will last. Like if it's set to 120 minutes, then he would just spawn as a shambler again, but if he joined after the set limit, then he would spawn normally.
Example: admin_shambler [Target] [Time limit (In minutes)]

I suppose if we wanted to get creative we could add in a random shambler that is spawened without legs and has to crawl. Perhaps give that to the player(s) with the least ammount of kills :D

Now that would just be cruel:blink:

Hastings

06-12-2007, 12:12 PM

Could also be used to kick idle players from the game without kicking them from the server. If a player stays to long in a safe spot without moving then he could get sent into shambler mode.

Horror, I think you misunderstand the concept, these shambler zombies cant attack anything :P I like the bone idea for the leg though :D

HorroR

06-12-2007, 01:38 PM

Split second idiocity - Forgot that it was spectators :P

cheese

07-05-2007, 08:35 PM

shamblers should be permitted to deal at least 1pt of damage so as to move props with their attacks.

JK-

07-06-2007, 08:48 AM

I believe they can easily make it so they can push stuff, without dealing damage.

cheese

07-06-2007, 08:23 PM

can you do that with phys and ragdoll props? I'm pretty sure they require damage, even something below the damage threshold.

JK-

07-07-2007, 07:52 AM

There is an entity in hammer which can push stuff, so I assume they can borrow some code from there and add to the shamblers.

But I take a guess it should be easy to just remove the damage from the attack.

Though, they can also code it from scratch, but I don't know how long that would take, and how hard it would be.

cheese

07-07-2007, 05:29 PM

Say "No!" to Shambler Spectators. In order to have a quicker release date.

JK-

07-07-2007, 05:38 PM

Say "Yes!" to to Shambler Spectators in a patch. In order to enjoy the game with even more awesome features, which will improve zps and make it stand out even more.

cheese

07-07-2007, 05:45 PM

spammer.

Hastings

07-07-2007, 10:22 PM

Adding something such as this would be much easier than many other proposed ideas I am sure. Besides that, if we want soemthing in, it will go in.

Release features are mostly defined by now however...

Sgt Pepper

07-13-2007, 12:49 PM

Yes, but by having to distract yourself from whatever task you have at hand to kill one, your slowing yourself down to deal with something you shouldn't really have to deal with.

Nothing works perfectly when the world is infested by the undead! It will add to the feeling of helplessness and chaos.

All for this idea, but maybe the rarity of the situation when the introduction of shamblers will occur (namely when theres a lot of spectators when zombie lives are depleted) will make this addition trivial?

cheese

07-16-2007, 09:54 AM

Guns work perfectly and so do chainsaws. And it seems like everyone has an iron bladder.

KillahMo

07-16-2007, 06:43 PM

I like the idea of the shambler... as long as we make them move really slow. I dont want someone following me around all over the place annoying the hell out of me all game long...

cheese

07-16-2007, 07:43 PM

especially if its like 10 people doing it

Shing-Shing

07-18-2007, 08:52 AM

haha i bet that would look really weird :P

cheese

07-18-2007, 10:29 AM

"come on baby, do the locomotion..."

Kazuya86

07-20-2007, 03:54 AM

Lol, Now its time for the Limbo folks:laugh:

cheese

07-20-2007, 12:20 PM

It'd be funny to see zombies do the limbo lol

kink_kinky100

07-21-2007, 08:11 AM

I give 1+ for shammbler mode hmm but what about a little animal like a rat or a chockroach? cuz zombie shammblers can block sight and movement and if a noob is the last one alive and a zombie shammbler is blocking his sight it will be tough for him to know were he is going unlike people that played the map

Hastings

07-21-2007, 11:23 AM

Well thats sorta the point. With their really low health and non attacking, they are able to impact the game in a small way, but are still very easy to be rid of.

Coldin

08-09-2007, 08:15 AM

I dislike the idea. The reason is that why would I want to play a shambler? I can zoom around the map and watch with no impact on the game. Or i can move slowly and possibly miss parts of the game being capable only of blocking a survivors view?

As for atmosphere, the whole "crowd of zombies" is very unlikely due to the game's system. Not to mention, if there was a situation in which the shamblers were able to organize into a crowd to say, hide a real zombie, it would look kinda cheesy if they all had the same model. Instead of a zombie crowd, it would look more like a zombie-clone crowd, and very likely the real zombie would stand out. Unless multiple shambler models were made, but if you ask me, that's a lot of work for something that will have such a small effect on game play.

Maybe shamblers could move items and create barricades to block survivors? Sounds nice at first, but seeing undead building little towers of boxes just seems kinda cheesy, especially since they are supposed to be mindless. And I feel this would be seen if they were given any ability to move props.

Other than that shamblers might as well just be floating cameras, because all they will be irritating, and pointless to play.

Hastings

08-09-2007, 02:07 PM

Well for one thing you didnt seem to read the idea, as it was mentioned that it is intended to be an optional spectator mode. You would not have to go into shambler if you do not wish to.

Its not meant to have a giant effect on the game, and hordes will be a rare appearance. It would actually be easier to make shambler zombies than anything else as they would have limited animations, and could be the same model reskinned. Regardless of that you are still going to so a repetition in survivor and zombie models, we cant make that many all at once.

Prop moving is not something I really support for this idea, but only because I think it effects gameplay to much.

You forget that they are an easthetic addition, an option, and dont harm much in the way of game play. Their minor irritation is intentional, and in no way pointless. Again, its just an option.

Coldin

08-10-2007, 12:36 PM

No, I understand that it's optional, just why ever choose the option?

As a survivor, I would be running around killing zombies, then I wouldn't kill this one specific one because I know it can't hurt me? Really I could only see it helping atmosphere if there was more than one. Which as I said, would be very unlikely, and if it did happen it would be cheesy because it would be two zombies standing near each other looking exactly the same.

As for human/zombie models, I understand there would be SOME repetition but not EVERY model will look the same.

JK-

08-10-2007, 12:49 PM

I think it's a good idea, and I think it would be awesome if implemented.

As for the "shamblers" being look-a-likes, it doesn't matter.
In every multiplayer-game I've played, then I've always seen people that look the same, and that hasn't bothered me one bit. Of course it's good when it's some variation, but it's just completely lame to disagree with an idea, just because that you might see 2 players at once, which looks exactly the same.

If you're so afraid of seeing 2 similar players, maybe you should stop with multiplayer games, because I think it'll continue to stay like this for a long time.

Pteradactyl

08-10-2007, 02:05 PM

You forget that they are an easthetic addition, an option, and dont harm much in the way of game play. Their minor irritation is intentional, and in no way pointless. Again, its just an option.

An option as in the player gets to choose to be a shambler or spectator?
Or is it a command you do so you could toggle it on and off for the server?

I'm for the idea if it's a server command to enable it or not.

Hastings

08-11-2007, 11:50 AM

Well I cant see why it couldn't be a server option really. Really though I can't see why its a big deal anyway. :unsure:

BeerWolf

08-11-2007, 03:49 PM

Ah - seeing how the shambler zombie is I think it should look something like this:

http://laughingsquid.com/wp-content/images/zombie_bunny.jpg

:D

grazr

08-11-2007, 03:53 PM

Well, if it's any consilation i'd wanna go shambler. I think the impact on atmosphere would be more than people would think, in a good way; and amusing. Like if the shambler had no arms, and was just crossing the street.. as i ran out a building, i'd be amused at the site of it. You know it doesn't harm you so theres a certain level of relief from seeing the zombie which you thought previously was going to hunt you down.

If you don't wanna go shambler, then don't. Just as easily it could be controlled server side as to whether shamblers are enabled for play. If you're really that bothered by shamblers make your own server with shambler mode disabled, or find one. I think it'd be a fun feature and agree with all of hastings points as to the purpose of the shambler.

Dejiko

08-11-2007, 04:33 PM

ok, i think what everyone (except for coldin >_>) has been saying so far is: "YES! shamblers would be GREAT!"

WatchMaker

08-11-2007, 04:43 PM

I personally don't care for the idea for various reasons.

Hastings

08-11-2007, 07:27 PM

Thats cause you smell funny watch :P

Care to say why though?

Dejiko

08-12-2007, 05:25 AM

why he smells funny or why he doesn't like the idea?

Hastings

08-12-2007, 07:42 AM

Perhaps both? :D

Sursely

08-12-2007, 09:21 AM

Dejiko

08-12-2007, 10:35 AM

Heres an idea:

What if there were ALWAYS shamblers on the map, like 10 or so of them, controlled by some really stupid AI until someone dies and chooses to take over one of them? That way the whole immersion thing of having a whole lot of zombies would always be there.

but if the map has lots of narrow corridors then the AI shamblers would probably get "stuck"(always wants to move in a direction it cant) alot and get in the way of player zombies. Although maybe just to make it less exploitable for pro-human shamblers you could make the shamblers take damage from zombies too.

Sursely

08-12-2007, 10:41 AM

Of course, any player, zombie or survivor, could easily kill a Shambler.

And everyone keeps bringing up the fact that they would get in the way, and thats kind of the point. They're a slight annoyance just like they would be if your city were really infested with zombies, there would be some that posed no threat to you because they had no arms or teeth. They could be easily pushed out of the way or shot and killed...

And I'm sure the path finding AI could be "smart" enough so they wouldn't get stuck that easily.

Hastings

08-12-2007, 05:05 PM

AI wont be added to the game for a variety of reasons, one being that with its addition map makers would be able to abuse it and change ZP gameplay. This was discussed before and one of the major reasons that a "dynamic menu" was shot down.

Another alternative that I am not sure has been said before is perhaps having the shambler zombie be a sort of punishment that admins could invoke on bad players. I bet I or another member has said this somewhere in the above posts, but I cant recall.

I like the idea of zombies being able to damage shamblers, keeps things from being biased on that side.